I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, which might have resulted in pegs.
So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I might do that.
How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that already?
There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a second.
It is normal to drive the pin below grade. The pin is usually a piece of rebar on end, so it is a fairly small target to find. They often have a plastic cap installed on the top with the surveyor's name on it. The pin is 2' long. I suppose someone could move a survey pin, but it would seem extreme. Once you've found one, go find the next to verify the distances on the plot. It is not unusual for two surveyors to have slightly different answers.
-- ______________________________ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) dgriff...@7cox.net
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of > finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the > development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps > pegged > at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own > survey, > which might have resulted in pegs.
> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other > people > know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to > think I > might do that.
> How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand > tools. > And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do > that > already?
> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for > a > second.
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:35:39 -0500, "DanG" <dgrif...@7cox.net> wrote:
Thanks for your good reply.
>It is normal to drive the pin below grade.
Just an inch or two? So I need a good metal detector.
> The pin is usually a >piece of rebar on end, so it is a fairly small target to find. >They often have a plastic cap installed on the top with the >surveyor's name on it. The pin is 2' long. I suppose someone >could move a survey pin, but it would seem extreme.
Property lines seem to bring out the extreme in some people, and some of them are crazy already. :)
>Once you've >found one, go find the next to verify the distances on the plot. >It is not unusual for two surveyors to have slightly different >answers.
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of > finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the > development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged > at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, > which might have resulted in pegs.
> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people > know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I > might do that.
> How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. > And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that > already?
> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a > second.
Pins are usually 1" metal rods that extend below the frostline so they won't be shoved up by freezing and thawing. It could be below grade by a foot or so, depending on your location.
Where I live (central Ohio), the property line begins in the middle of the road and extends towards the rear of the property. There is a 30' easement from the middle of the road. So, you may, or may not, have a pin on the front of your lot.
Unless you're putting up a fence, building, driveway and etc., there isn't really a need to know where the pin is. But if you are determined to find it, you may have difficulty finding it with a cheap metal detector. The county courthouse should have records that state who performed the last survey. It should be on your deed also. Call the people who last surveyed it and see what they would charge you to find it. It is usually at most a couple hundred dollars.
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of > finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the > development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged > at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, > which might have resulted in pegs.
> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people > know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I > might do that.
If that is the case you are wasting your time.
> How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. > And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that > already?
You bring the surveyor back and have them confirm that the pins are correct.
> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a > second.
If the neighbor doesn't trust you what do you hope to prove by declaring "see, there's the corner pin"?
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of > finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the > development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged > at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, > which might have resulted in pegs.
> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people > know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I > might do that.
> How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. > And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that > already?
> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a > second.
I have found survey pegs with a metal detector and a dowser. I have seen two types. One is a piece of rebar with a brass top. Very easy to find with a metal detector. One is a piece of rebar with a plastic top. Easy to find, but doesn't give out the signal of brass. Set your metal detector/s discriminator to a low setting. Get you some orange soccer cones, or just rocks to make squares to search so you don't go over the same area over and over. The brass ones really put out a signal.
When these are pounded in the ground, the rod goes first. Then the cap. If one has been messed with, it is usually obvious, and if a brass one has been rehammered, the marks will show. Ditto with plastic. I've never pulled one, so don't know how long they are. The rod is usually 3/4" to 1" dia.
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of > finding one or more surveyor pegs. ?I'm at the corner of the > development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged > at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, > which might have resulted in pegs.
> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people > know I haven't moved it? ?My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I > might do that. ?
> How long is it? ?Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. > And replaced 6 inches away. ? Hey! ?How do I know he didn't do that > already? ?
> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a > second.
Pins are usually 1" metal rods that extend below the frostline so they won't be shoved up by freezing and thawing. It could be below grade by a foot or so, depending on your location.
Where I live (central Ohio), the property line begins in the middle of the road and extends towards the rear of the property. There is a 30' easement from the middle of the road. So, you may, or may not, have a pin on the front of your lot.
Unless you're putting up a fence, building, driveway and etc., there isn't really a need to know where the pin is. But if you are determined to find it, you may have difficulty finding it with a cheap metal detector. The county courthouse should have records that state who performed the last survey. It should be on your deed also. Call the people who last surveyed it and see what they would charge you to find it. It is usually at most a couple hundred dollars.
Hank
Hank, I have had metal detectors since 1980. Brass is one of the easiest things to find, even with a cheapo.
> Just an inch or two? So I need a good metal detector.
No, if it's brass, it will give off a good signal that even a cheapo can find. A 2' piece of rebar will also give off a good signal. Hang one of the neodymium magnets on a string, and walk over it. You may be able to find it that way, too. That method works for small meteorites, it would work for a 1 inch piece of rebar.
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:06:20 -0400, mm wrote: > How big are surveyor pegs?
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of finding > one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the development, so the > original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged at my corner, and the > previous owner of my house had his own survey, which might have resulted > in pegs.
Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does - and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of using a tape measure...
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of > finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the > development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged > at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, > which might have resulted in pegs.
> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people > know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I > might do that.
> How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. > And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that > already?
> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a > second.
It depends upon whether the surveyor put in metal markers at all. Sometimes it may just be a piece of wood lath with a red plastic strip tied around it. I've had my property surveyed at least twice since I bought the property 26 years ago. When I bought the property there only one visible marker and that was a 1" galvanized pipe imbedded in concrete on the road side of the property. It was so old that the pipe was gone, leaving just a rusty stub in the concrete.I later broke the stub off so I wouldn't get a flat on my garden tractor when mowing. I needed a new survey before I could build the house for the building inspector to check setbacks. They used the lath. A couple of years later, I needed a new survey to install an in-ground pool, also to check for setbacks. For this last survey I paid a little extra to have rebar markers set at the corners. I can still find 3 of the markers, but the 4th one is in a wooded area and fallen leaves, trees, branches, and other natural debris have covered it pretty well. I can't use a metal detector because there is an old metal fence and a piece of farming equipment buried just about where I figure the marker should be. I already tried with a neighbor's detector. It's not really important to find that one, since the woods drop down into a small heavily wooded valley, so nothing could be built there. Even if they could build, they would have to find the marker, not me.
--
Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @
> Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does > - and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give > them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of > using a tape measure...
But does one know where to start measuring from, precisely???
>> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of finding >> one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the development, so the >> original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged at my corner, and the >> previous owner of my house had his own survey, which might have resulted >> in pegs.
> Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does > - and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give > them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of > using a tape measure...
If you don't have a known good reference where would you place the end of the tape measure?
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:25:45 -0500, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote: > >Jules Richardson wrote: > >...
> >> Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does > >> - and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give > >> them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of > >> using a tape measure...
> >But does one know where to start measuring from, precisely???
> I went to city hall and obtained a copy of the survey plot they had on > file. I was then able to measure from the sides and corners of my > house, which was on the plot print out to verify where my property > line was. The plot showed the distance from corners of the structure > to property lines. It was pretty simple.
> I even learned that the driveway had been relocated from where it was > when the survey was done.
This may or may not work. I had a neighbor that said his house was off in the survey when he measured to marker. Around here, survey is needed when property changes hands but surveyers may not even come out and if you want markers they charge extra as survey is just checking last survey. I've been watching my property line change back and forth with each owner. I gained about 5 feet last time which for a 300 ft property line is 1,500 sq. ft. ;)
sa...@dog.com wrote: > On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT), Frank > <frank.logu...@dol.net> wrote:
>> On Mar 19, 10:43 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: >>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:25:45 -0500, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote: >>>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> ... >>>>> Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does >>>>> - and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give >>>>> them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of >>>>> using a tape measure... >>>> But does one know where to start measuring from, precisely??? >>> I went to city hall and obtained a copy of the survey plot they had on >>> file. I was then able to measure from the sides and corners of my >>> house, which was on the plot print out to verify where my property >>> line was. The plot showed the distance from corners of the structure >>> to property lines. It was pretty simple.
>>> I even learned that the driveway had been relocated from where it was >>> when the survey was done. >> This may or may not work. I had a neighbor that said his house was >> off in the survey when he measured to marker.
> Maybe he was off! LOL
> I had the plot for the houses on either side of my property, and > measuring from their houses to the line came to the same place. I'm > very confident that everyting is as it is supposed to be, and so are > the neighbors.
...
IME, that'd be pretty unusual for the plats to be very accurate compared to as builts. Not that it's impossible, but in general the surveys don't worry about where things are _on_ the plat but only where the boundaries are. Much will depend on age of the survey and for whom it was done and specifically why, of course...
On Mar 19, 4:06 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> How big are surveyor pegs? >snip<
Old surveyors pegs in our (central Illinois) area were 2' long 1" galvanized pipe. A problem that is common in our locale is that the early surveyors were evidently sloppy with their magnetic North settings. When I wanted a precise location for a fence around the first house I bought, the surveyors discovered that the east-west line was nearly 2' off to the east. My lawyer advised that modern technology trumps old, and that legal descriptions must be held intact. My neighbor to the west was elated that his structures were well placed and the neighbor to the east was rather upset at losing a nice fruit tree that had been planted close to the old line and was now in my yard. Fortunately we all got along. Later, moving to a nearby town, the same errors arose, this time both east-west and north-south locations off by about 1 1/2' from 1890 or so surveys. One result was when a neighbor sold her house, it was necessary for her to have the swimming pool privacy fence moved to the newer lot line. Encroachment rules did not permit leaving it there since formal notification and permission had been granted and relawyering the deal would cost more than moving the fence. Like they say in cow country, 'good fences make good neighbors', and that applies to valid lot lines.
In article <bbf6q59eegh4ophnpprj8pnhsqhh1jk...@4ax.com>, NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com (mm) writes:
| How big are surveyor pegs? | | I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of | finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the | development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged | at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, | which might have resulted in pegs. | | So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people | know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I | might do that. | | How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. | And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that | already? | | There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a | second.
There's another problem even if you find some pegs. Without a survey that references them you don't really know what they mean. For example, I have a peg that could very well be the lot corner but is actually about six inches off (funny you should mention that number). The last time I had a survey done they mentioned this but the scale of their drawing was such that the displacement was invisible. (I asked for and received a detail drawing that makes it clear.) There is another peg that you might think was on the rear lot line but is actually a few feet off. N.B. I don't think these pegs were errors nor has the line moved due to better technology; they just weren't being used for the obvious purpose.
I believe it's bad form (perhaps even illegal) to remove pegs even if they are confusing, so they tend to accumulate. I don't think a survey becomes public record unless it is recorded. If you are lucky the caps indicate which surveyor drove the pegs, but I don't know that they would tell you about the related survey if somebody else paid for it. At least if you can match the caps you might be able to figure out which pegs were driven at the same time.
> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of > finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the > development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged > at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, > which might have resulted in pegs.
> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people > know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I > might do that.
> How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. > And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that > already?
> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a > second.
I have seen everything from a wooden 2" x 2", rebar, 1/2" x 1/2" square bar, to 1" pipe. Around here they are only 2 to 3 feet long. I found one old stake that had a hand forged point on one end and the remains of threads on the other, it was 3/4" in diameter. I have never seen a brass stake as they are called here.
>> I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of >> finding one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the >> development, so the original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged >> at my corner, and the previous owner of my house had his own survey, >> which might have resulted in pegs.
>> So it occurs to me, if and when I find the peg, how do other people >> know I haven't moved it? My neighbor is suspicious enough to think I >> might do that.
>> How long is it? Regardless, surely it can be removed with hand tools. >> And replaced 6 inches away. Hey! How do I know he didn't do that >> already?
>> There has already been one survey here. I don't want to pay for a >> second.
> I have seen everything from a wooden 2" x 2", rebar, 1/2" x 1/2" square > bar, to 1" pipe. Around here they are only 2 to 3 feet long. I found one > old stake that had a hand forged point on one end and the remains of > threads on the other, it was 3/4" in diameter. I have never seen a brass > stake as they are called here.
I held a lot of measuring poles for my father, back in the days when you had to use a transit rather than a laser level. I've seen all of the above. Subdivisions when I was a kid were usually 2x2 wood stakes with a nail in the top for the metal detector. Sometimes oiled or creosoted to slow down rot. Lately, I see a lot of rod or pipe, with those dayglo snap-on caps. In my junk box, I have half a dozen copper-colored 6-inch metal stakes designed for use in pavement, with a brass head that will become a yellow dot in the asphalt. I presume they are copper plate over some harder metal. In Indiana, in the old days, anyone laying out a rural subdivision had to link a base line back to the nearest permanent bench mark, often the 'quarter section' post you would see at intersections. Those were concrete with the brass plug. There were legal penalties for moving or removing those. (Back in the land grant days, sometimes people got violent about it.)
I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it. Short of a high-dollar modern survey using multiple GPS readings, corner pegs are not decimal-3 exact anyway. If your county still has the old-style paper plat books, leaf through one sometime. On the summary page for each section, it lists what the deeds add up to, versus the size of the section or quarter-section.
Joe wrote: > On Mar 19, 4:06 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: >> How big are surveyor pegs?
>> snip<
> Old surveyors pegs in our (central Illinois) area were 2' long 1" > galvanized pipe. A problem that is common in our locale is that the > early surveyors were evidently sloppy with their magnetic North > settings. When I wanted a precise location for a fence around the > first house I bought, the surveyors discovered that the east-west line > was nearly 2' off to the east.
I used to have high regard for surveyors. I have done some CAD drafting of old commercial and industrial buildings and had the current surveys of them - about 5 years ago.
One building had both property long dimensions about 5 FEET to far to the west. One of the surveyed property lines went through a loading dock.
One building had a parcel included that was not part of the property. The same building had a physical description of the building that had an error (not major).
Another building had a major error in the description of the building (number of floors). (Location on the survey was OK.)
Another building had a vacated street that had been added. Using the description in the survey there was about a 5 foot closure error when you drafted the street (about 450 feet long).
> My lawyer advised that modern > technology trumps old, and that legal descriptions must be held > intact. My neighbor to the west was elated that his structures were > well placed and the neighbor to the east was rather upset at losing a > nice fruit tree that had been planted close to the old line and was > now in my yard. Fortunately we all got along. > Later, moving to a nearby town, the same errors arose, this time both > east-west and north-south locations off by about 1 1/2' from 1890 or > so surveys. One result was when a neighbor sold her house, it was > necessary for her to have the swimming pool privacy fence moved to the > newer lot line. Encroachment rules did not permit leaving it there > since formal notification and permission had been granted and > relawyering the deal would cost more than moving the fence. > Like they say in cow country, 'good fences make good neighbors', and > that applies to valid lot lines.
If someone uses your property as their own for a period of time you can loose it through "adverse possession". Would think you might be able to avoid that by renting the property for $1 a year, with paperwork. Moving the fence is a cleaner fix.
In article <79ffb$4ba4e006$cde8d5bd$13...@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote: > If someone uses your property as their own for a period of time you can > loose it through "adverse possession". Would think you might be able to > avoid that by renting the property for $1 a year, with paperwork. Moving > the fence is a cleaner fix.
That is dependent on the state. Some recognize it, some don't. FWIW
-- I get off on '57 Chevys I get off on screamin' guitars --Eric Clapton
> A problem that is common in our locale is that the > early surveyors were evidently sloppy with their magnetic North > settings. When I wanted a precise location for a fence around the > first house I bought, the surveyors discovered that the east-west line > was nearly 2' off to the east.
Magnetic north declination is constantly shifting. To determine a magnetic north setting from years ago vs a magnetic north recheck of that setting today would require a correction factor for the shifting of the field. IIRC, the true north pole is about 100+ miles from the magnetic north pole. True north is determined by solar measurements rather than compass.
The pegs at my last two properties were rebar shafts about 12" or more long with a yellow or orange plastic cap on one end. I have found some with a metal detector but others have eluded me. If your property is in a densely populated neighborhood they might have moved. By the time a small lot is driven on with dump trucks, cement mixers and tractors the pins might be very deep, or a foot or more off of the surveyed location.
Also remember that the pins might not be at or near the curb in a residential area. if you have an easement (12' for example) they will be back 12' from the curb, or a given distance from the center of the street. Doesn't hurt to have the neighborhood planning map.
<jules.richardsonnews...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:06:20 -0400, mm wrote: > > How big are surveyor pegs?
> > I've made arrangement to borrow a metal detector in the hope of finding > > one or more surveyor pegs. I'm at the corner of the development, so the > > original property was surveyed and perhaps pegged at my corner, and the > > previous owner of my house had his own survey, which might have resulted > > in pegs.
> Doesn't the paperwork for your house state the size of the lot? Ours does > - and even if it didn't, I could presumably poke the county folk and give > them the lot number and they could tell me. Then it's just a case of > using a tape measure...
I can't find my 5 acre tape measure. I guess I'll use my 25 footer. That shouldn’t take too long.
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